In this episode, host Gwyneth Shaw talks with Berkeley Law Dean Erwin Chemerinsky, whose term as dean was recently extended by UC Berkeley leadership until June 30, 2029. With the rule of law under assault and legal education facing big questions, Chemerinsky decided to stay beyond June 2027, when he had initially planned to step down.
The most cited constitutional law scholar in recent years and twice named the most influential person in legal education by National Jurist, Chemerinsky served as the founding dean at UC Irvine School of Law before coming to Berkeley and previously was a law professor at Duke, Southern California, and DePaul. He has written 22 books, over 200 law review articles, countless op-eds, and explains topical legal issues in the popular web series “It’s the Law.”
Chemerinsky has also argued several cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, served as the Association of American Law Schools president in 2022, and is a leading voice in urging law schools and lawyers to protect democracy and America’s constitutional guardrails.
To learn more about Dean Chemerinsky, his tenure at Berkeley Law, and his work:
- “In a Way Other Schools Can’t or Won’t”: Chemerinsky Extends Deanship to Advance Berkeley Law’s Public Mission
- “It’s the Law” on YouTube
- “Answering the Call” from Transcript, spring 2026
- Campus Speech and Academic Freedom: A Guide for Difficult Times
About:
“Berkeley Law Voices Carry” is a podcast hosted by Gwyneth Shaw about how the school’s faculty, students, and staff are making an impact — in California, across the country, and around the world — through pathbreaking scholarship, hands-on legal training, and advocacy.
Production by Yellow Armadillo Studios
Episode Transcript
(intro music playing)
[GWYNETH SHAW]
Hi, listeners. I’m Gwyneth Shaw, and this is Berkeley Law Voices Carry, a podcast about how our faculty, students, and staff are making an impact through pathbreaking scholarship, hands-on legal training, and advocacy. I have a very special guest for this episode, Berkeley Law Dean Erwin Chemerinsky.
He’s been dean since 2017 and had planned to step down next summer. But with the rule of law under assault and legal education facing big questions, UC Berkeley recently extended Chemerinsky’s tenure as dean by two years, through June 30th, 2029. Since well before he came to Berkeley, Chemerinsky has been a national figure.
Even if you’re not a lawyer, professor, or student, you’ve probably read something he’s written. The most cited constitutional law scholar in recent years, and twice named the most influential person in legal education by National Jurist, Chemerinsky served as the founding dean at UC Irvine School of Law before coming to Berkeley. Previously, he was a law professor at Duke, USC, and DePaul.
He has written 22 books, over 200 law review articles, countless op-eds, and explains topical legal issues in the popular Berkeley Law web series, It’s the Law. Chemerinsky has also argued several cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, served as the Association of American Law Schools president in 2022, and is a leading voice in urging law schools and lawyers to protect democracy and America’s constitutional guardrails. He’s also been a transformational dean here at Berkeley Law.
During his tenure, the school has hired more than three dozen new faculty and greatly expanded its clinical program, research centers and institutes, pro bono program, and the Jurisprudence and Social Policy program. The current 1L JD class has the highest grade point average and is tied for the highest LSAT score since the school began tracking such figures, and the school’s job placement and bar passage figures have also soared. When his term extension was announced, Chemerinsky said he wants to, “think big” over his final three years as dean, adding that, “Berkeley Law can and must lead in a way that other schools can’t or won’t.”
I’m delighted to have him here to talk about what that means. Thanks for joining me, Dean Chemerinsky.
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
Thank you so much, and thank you for that incredibly kind introduction.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
I could go on. What made you decide to take on another two years as dean?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
Several things. One is, just as what you said, I think that we’re in an unprecedented moment in American history. I’ve never been so afraid or imagined being so afraid for the future of democracy.
I believe that if our democracy is gonna survive, if democracy is gonna thrive throughout the world, it has to be because of lawyers in courts. And I think that Berkeley Law, through its faculty, through its clinics, centers, can play a key role in upholding democracy and the rule of law. And I wanna help to lead that effort.
Also, it’s well known that the University of California, the Berkeley campus, the law school, in fact, all of higher education face financial challenges, and I want to put the law school on a long-term, stable financial footing. And finally, I want to use the next three years, just as you say, to think big. I want to challenge our faculty, our staff, our students to think about what should be the future of legal education, what role can law schools play with regard to the legal system, and at least start to lay the foundation for those efforts in the years to come.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
You mentioned some of the challenges that law schools and higher education are facing right now. Can you talk a little bit about some of the bigger picture ones as well as some of the smaller ones?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I think that one of the most significant challenges that law schools and higher education face is with regard to students being able to afford to come. I’m very concerned about how high tuition is for us and all schools, but the problem is made much worse because in the summer of 2025, as part of the so-called BIG Bill, Congress eliminated the Grad PLUS student loan program. It created a cap on annual borrowing for professional schools of $50,000 a year or $200,000 lifetime, and for graduate schools, a cap of $20,500 or $100,000 lifetime.
Let me put this in context. The tuition at Berkeley Law is now $65,000 a year for in-staters and $80,000 a year for out-of-staters. That’s tuition.
That’s not cost of attendance. And this is typical of all of our peer schools in terms of cost. Well, if federal student loans are capped at $50,000, how are people going to be able to afford to come to law school?
And of course, this isn’t just a restriction for law schools. For medical schools, for dental schools, it’s the same $50,000 a year cap even though their costs are greater. For nursing schools, for business schools, they’re deemed graduate programs, not professional schools, and it’s a cap of $20,500.
I don’t wanna see law schools, professional schools, graduate schools just be for those who are wealthy enough to be able to afford it without being able to get loans. So it’s so important that we put a premium on raising money for scholarships. No one should be denied the ability to go to law school because they don’t have the ability to pay
[GWYNETH SHAW]
And scholarships have been a real priority for you, and fundraising has been a real priority for you during the time you’ve been dean. How can Berkeley Law alumni help?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
The reality is that the University of California, the Berkeley campus, the law school, all institutions of higher education are experiencing real financial difficulties. And so we depend tremendously on the support of our alumni. I’ll put this in stark numbers.
Of our budget, 60% comes from tuition, JD and LLM tuition. This year, 6% is coming from public money, and we’ve already been told that’s going down starting next year and will continue to go down in the next several years. And the other third of all our money comes from what we raise through philanthropy and the endowment income we have.
So we’re tremendously dependent for all of our programs on philanthropy and on the support of the alumni. In particular, for scholarships, we need to raise more money for scholarships so that this generation of law students can have what earlier generations had, the ability to go to Berkeley Law without crushing debt. And I even worry now that some aren’t gonna be able to go at all ’cause they can’t obtain the funds to pay for law school.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
You mentioned that you have grave concerns about what’s going on in our country right now. Why are lawyers so important at this moment, and why is legal education so crucial?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
The rule of law is that no one- Not the president, not any government official is above the law. Core to our country is that government at all levels has to operate under the Constitution. But who is there to enforce the rule of law?
Who is there to enforce the Constitution? It has to be lawyers who are bringing the cases and judges in courts that are enforcing them. If you look at countries that once were democracies and now are governed by authoritarian regimes, it’s because the law failed.
Well, this, I think, answers your question about why law schools are so important. When I speak to prospective law students, I say in all sincerity that there’s never been a more important time to go to law school or be a lawyer than now.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
In my introduction, I didn’t mention one of the other things you’ve been hard at work on during the past several months, which is a lawsuit that clinical professor Claudia Polsky helped organize against the Trump administration to help restore federal grant funding to University of California researchers. Some other universities and schools have signed big money settlements with this administration. Have you been surprised by the way some of this has played out, and what drove you to get involved with this suit?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I want to separate your question into two parts. First, the settlements that other universities have reached with the Trump administration. I am very critical of those settlements.
The Trump administration suits run very weak legal grounds, but universities chose, other than Harvard so far, to settle rather than to litigate. So schools like Brown and Cornell and Northwestern have entered into settlements. Harvard has chosen to litigate, and Harvard has won so far in its challenge to the Trump administration.
The settlements to me are troubling on many levels. I mean, one is we all learned long ago on the playground, if you give in to a bully, you only make it worse. Some of those terms go far beyond what the law requires.
Some of the settlements, like with Brown and Northwestern, prevent the universities from providing gender-affirming care. That has nothing to do with the ostensible basis of the lawsuits, which are about fighting anti-Semitism. Some of the lawsuits limit the ability of college universities to pursue diversity through lawful means, even ones approved by the Supreme Court.
And so I think this is a time where we need courage, where we need people to fight back. I admire the four law firms that fought back against the Trump administration and won so far. I admire Harvard for filing lawsuits, and I’m critical of the universities that have settled.
Let me answer the question this way about it. I think that we will be judged for what we did at this time years from now. Just like we look back at history and judge how people behaved in difficult times.
And I think the question is, will we be praised for our courage and resistance, or will we be condemned for our capitulation? That’s why I speak about it as I do. The second part of your question involves lawsuit.
My colleague Claudia Polsky, in the spring of 2025, had the idea we should have a lawsuit on behalf of University of California faculty and researchers who have had grants cut off. There was no indication that the university itself would bring such a lawsuit. Claudia helped recruit two law firms, Lieff Cabraser and Farella Braun, to be pro bono counsel.
I’m proud to be one of the co-counsel in the lawsuit as well. And so far we’ve succeeded. We’ve gotten about a billion dollars in grants restored to University of California faculties and researchers.
And I really admire Claudia, and I’m enormously grateful to all the lawyers at those two firms that have done this on a pro bono basis.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
And many of those lawyers are Berkeley Law alumni, which has been a fun bonus to that as well. In fact, you can read about it if you’re listening, in our spring issue of the Berkeley Law Alumni Magazine transcript has it.
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
Last June, when we went to court to argue for a preliminary injunction I argued in part, and Elizabeth Cabraser argued the other part. Elizabeth is a Berkeley Law graduate of 1978, and it was such an honor and a pleasure to stand up in court in San Francisco with her, and we’ve had the chance to appear other times as well. Claudia has appeared in court, and Claudia herself is a Berkeley Law alum.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
Let’s get back to your tenure as dean. What’s your proudest accomplishment so far, and what are you setting for goals for yourself when 2029 rolls around?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I think you listed the things that I’m proudest of. We’ve hired almost three dozen new faculty over the course of the nine years that I’ve been dean. And they are just terrific.
They’re terrific at all levels of experience. Senior faculty coming from other schools like the University of Pennsylvania and Yale and University of Chicago and University of Michigan. Entry-level faculty who are, or will soon be real superstars in their field.
I’m proud about how we’ve increased the scholarships. We more than doubled the scholarship budget in the years that I’ve been here. At the same time, we’ve increased median LSAT, median GPA.
We’ve increased the diversity of our entering class. I’m proud of the centers that we’ve created. We’ve created many new centers during the time I’ve been here.
I worry if I list some, I’m not gonna list all, and people get mad at me, but it- I’ll try it anyway. Things like the Center for Law and Work, the Center for Criminal Justice and Society, or the Center for Indigenous People and Native Americans, the Edley Center on Law and Democracy, and they are just doing terrific work.
We’ve expanded our clinical program. We’ve created some new clinics as well. And so these are the things that I am most proud of.
In terms of the- Next three years of my deanship, I sent a message to the community, and we’ve already talked about that. First, I wanna put the law school on a long-term, stable financial footing.
Second, I want the law school to play an important role with regard to upholding the rule of law and democracy. And third, I want us to begin thinking for the long term of how should we change legal education, how should we change the legal profession, and to begin to put in processes that can bring that about years from now
[GWYNETH SHAW]
One of the things that you’ve also really championed as dean has been the role of leadership in legal education, training lawyers how to be leaders, training lawyers in that avenue. How does that play into sort of your general thinking about what kinds of change is needed in legal education moving forward?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I think that law schools have generally not done a good job of leadership training. Leadership training has been a major part of business school education for a long time. But for many different reasons, it isn’t something that law schools have focused on.
So one of the things that I wanted to do, we did a couple years ago, was create a leadership training institute, and I wanna see us expand it, and ultimately, as we think big, find a way that we provide leadership training for all of our students. Because they can’t imagine it. When they’re first-year law students, they sooner than they can think will be in leadership roles.
And of course, people can be leaders in all sorts of different ways. There’s being a leader in terms of title and position, but in any organization, we have the ability to help lead it, and I want to provide our students the training for how to best do that.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
One of the things that happened before your term was extended was a little bit of a campaign by Berkeley Law faculty, staff, and alumni who kind of organized campaigns to get you to stay on. Can you talk about each of those communities and what they bring to the school? Because Berkeley Law is such a strong community.
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I was very touched and deeply moved when some of our alumni, some of our faculty, some of our staff came to me and suggested extending my term. I assumed that I would step down as dean on June 30th, 2027, take a sabbatical, and then return to the faculty for teaching and writing. I don’t have any interest in retiring.
And it’s appealing to think of just being a full-time law professor. It’s the best job in the world. But I was moved by some of their arguments.
I talked about it with my wife, Catherine Fisk, and she was wonderfully supportive of the idea of extending my term as dean. In terms of the constituencies you mentioned Each is vital to being a terrific law school. Ultimately, the quality of any law school is based on its faculty.
In terms of our staff, we have a great staff at Berkeley Law that support everything we do. And in terms of alumni, we need their involvement. We need their involvement in some of them teaching for us as lecturers.
We need their involvement in their providing mentorship to our students. We need their involvement in the financial support that they provide. We have a wonderful alumni association board, and I certainly look for ways to even more alumni engagement.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
I’m gonna give you the ultimate softball here. But what makes Berkeley Law special, in your opinion? I think you say this a lot, and as someone who works here, I agree with you. What are some of the things that you think sets Berkeley Law apart from other top law schools?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I always say that there’s three things that make Berkeley Law special. The first is our excellence, and it’s comprehensive excellence. We have terrific faculty in so many different areas of law.
And they’re not only excellent as scholars, but they’re terrific as teachers. I had a graduating student come to me just this week and say she talks to her friends at other law schools, and the faculty aren’t available to students, or it’s a situation where the faculty aren’t very good teachers. And she said her experience at Berkeley is just the opposite, and it’s so gratifying to hear that.
Second, what makes us different is our public mission. There are other excellent law schools, but I don’t know if there’s another law school in the country that takes seriously the public mission about training lawyers. And our own efforts to use law to make society and the world a better place.
And the third is our community. Some of what makes the community special is it’s such an intellectually vibrant community. Literally every day, there’s many speakers.
Every week, there’s programs and symposia that are here, and it’s also a very warm, supportive community. People really care about one another and take care of one another.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
What will you miss the most about being dean? If anything.
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
Oh, I will. It’s been an amazing nine years. I’m thrilled to have three more years.
I think the way in which I get to closely work with people in this role. I have a terrific team of senior administrators, and I’ll miss the chance to work with them. I really cherish the opportunity to support our faculty, try to do everything I can to help our faculty be productive scholars and successful teachers, and I’ll miss the opportunity to do that.
On the other hand, as I said to you— I’m not going to retire. I’m not going to leave Berkeley. Catherine
and I decided this is where we’ll stay. So. And I guess it’ll be four years—after three years more as dean and one year sabbatical, I’ll come back, and as long as I’m able, teach and write, and get to be a colleague with this great faculty.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
The last thing I want to ask you about is something I mentioned in the introduction. It’s the Law series, which you started not long after Trump’s second inaugural, and is a, if you haven’t seen it already, quick-hit video series talking about different questions about the law. It’s been super popular and super helpful for lots of people who may not understand some of these big questions.
Why did you want to do that, and why do you think it’s valuable for people to understand at a really elemental level some of the things that are happening right now and how they’re not necessarily in compliance with the law?
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
We do a poor job of civic education in this country. More people can name some of the Seven Dwarfs than can name Supreme Court justices. When surveys have been done, only 50% of the people can describe how a law is adopted.
A third of the people can’t name the three branches of the federal government. I think that we have to find a way to educate people about the law, about the Constitution, and we need to do it in a way in which people receive information now. People aren’t gonna go read my law review articles.
But if it’s a one to two-minute TikTok or Instagram video, then we have the opportunity to explain the law to people, and that’s what I’m trying to do in this series. It’s not opinion. It’s really trying to answer questions about what’s the law in a particular area?
What can and can’t the government do? And I’ve been gratified. I think we have over a million people have watched the series.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
So since the second Trump administration began, you’ve written a lot of op-eds. You’ve gone on a lot of podcasts. You’ve done a lot of videos.
You’ve worked really, really hard to be a voice for pushing back against what this administration is doing. What are some of the things that you’re the most worried about over the next few years, and what are some of the things that you are optimistic about? If we can end on a slightly positive note,
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
I’m worried about whether or not the democracy will survive as we’ve known it. I’m worried about whether the guardrails of democracy will hold. Let me make that more concrete.
If you ask me, the single thing that I’m most afraid of is: what if the courts issue an order? And President Trump says, “I’m paying no attention and doing it anyway.” After all, he said, quote, “He who saves the country violates no law.”
Vice President JD Vance has said the president doesn’t have to obey orders that he believes violate the powers of the executive branch of government. If the president can violate the law and ignore court orders, he can literally then do anything. And-
There’s certainly been indications of the president disobeying some court orders. A federal judge in Minnesota said that the president had disobeyed hundreds of court orders with regard to releasing non-citizens. A federal judge in Boston said that the president had disobeyed court orders with regard to releasing federal funds.
But if the president, in a major case, defies the courts, the courts are limited in what they can do. And so if you ask me, what’s my greatest fear? Then we will see a crisis of democracy that we’ve never seen before in this country.
Presidents have always followed court orders. What makes me optimistic? Two things.
One is the sweep of history. The overall sweep of history has been expansion of freedom and equality. We have a long way to go in our society with regard to racial equality, but it’s sure better than it was in 1787 or 1868.
Even I was born in 1953, and at that time, every Southern state and some Northern states had laws that segregated every aspect of life. We have a long way to go with regard to equality for women But when you look at where we were not that long ago, when Sandra Day O’Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg graduated from law school, no law firms would hire them. We have a long way to go with regard to equality for gay and lesbian and transgender individuals.
But it’s only 11 years ago that the Supreme Court finally said the gay and lesbian individuals had the right to marry. So I think Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. got it right when he said, “The arc of the moral universe is long, and it bends towards justice.” The other thing that gives me hope is my students.
They’re so idealistic and so passionate, and they give me confidence that they really will be able to bend the arc of the moral universe towards justice.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
Well, that’s a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for this incredible conversation, Dean Chemerinsky.
[DEAN CHEMERINSKY]
Thank you so much. Truly my pleasure.
[GWYNETH SHAW]
And thank you, listeners. To learn more about Dean Chemerinsky, his tenure as dean, and his work, including It’s the Law, please check out the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it, and be sure to subscribe to Voices Carry wherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, I’m Gwyneth Shaw.